Ian Chillag: Everything Is Alive
Transcript: An interview with Ian Chillag, creator of Everything is Alive
In this episode of Inside Podcasting, Skye Pillsbury interviews Ian Chillag, creator of the original, funny and thought-provoking podcast Everything is Alive. We’ve included a transcript below, but hope you’ll check it out in podcast form, too. You can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen.
Note: This interview has been lightly edited for brevity
Skye: Hey guys. Welcome to Inside Podcasting. I am your host, Skye Pillsbury, and today I speak with Ian Chillag. He is the host of Everything is Alive — a show in which he interviews inanimate objects. It is funny. It is thought provoking. It’s poignant. It’s all the things. We kick things off by talking a bit about Ian’s background, which I really enjoyed. But, if you want to get right to the Everything is Alive chat that starts around minute 7 or 8. We also include a clip of the show around minute 13 or 14. Just some signposts in the road for you there. I hope you enjoy the show.
Skye: Ian, your podcast is so delightful. I am personally so excited to be talking to you about it. It’s also very quirky. I wonder whether you were a quirky child.
Ian: She’s getting right into it. I don’t know what that means. I mean, I feel like mostly kids are pretty weird. I was a kid that teachers and other authority figures called creative.
Skye: Yeah.
Ian: I mean, it’s funny when you’re thinking about that in the context of the show. I got this note from — do you know what object-oriented ontology is?
Skye: No.
Ian: I did not know this term until I started making the show where I talk to inanimate objects. There is this school within philosophy — within academic philosophy — called object-oriented ontology. People think about, essentially, the life of objects. When I started the show I heard from people who study this. One guy, a professor, wrote me and said I’m not doing anything new exactly, I just didn’t stop doing what everybody does when they’re kids.
Skye: He just continued the creativity from his childhood — he found a way to make it a career.
Ian: Yeah, right.
Skye: Well, that’s cool. What was your early life like?
Ian: I don’t know what to say. I grew up in West Virginia. I have two parents who are both named Shawn. That’s a factor. They have the same name.
Skye: Oh. That’s interesting. Was that confusing?
Ian: No. And, weirdly, I didn’t call them Mom and Dad.
Skye: You called them Shawn and Shawn?
Ian: I called them Shawn and Shawn. I mean, I called them Mom and Dad when I was younger, but then I started calling them Shawn and Shawn. I think there’s just something about it where — their backs could be turned to me and I could intend to get my dad’s attention and say, “Shawn,” and the right one would turn around. So, there’s some nuance in the way I say Shawn when I’m talking to my mom and my dad.
Skye: That’s very interesting. One that you’re not even really consciously aware of.
Ian: Yeah.
Skye: Tell us about the path that you took to becoming a radio producer. I don’t know much about this part of your background.
Ian: In college I did a lot of photography. I was really interested in documentary photography. Out of college I wanted to kind of make a go of that. I had a couple photography assisting jobs, and then was doing some stringing for weekly papers in Philadelphia. I was also a very bad photographer, and my captions were always a lot better than my images. I thought there was something about the type of photography I was interested in where I realized that the stories that I wanted to tell with photographs no one would ever see them. Maybe they would end up in, if I was lucky, a fancy literary magazine or gallery somewhere. I had this idea that if the stories were what mattered then radio was a much better place to tell them because you could have no money and be in the middle of a field anywhere in the world and have a radio and hear them. So I thought maybe I would try radio instead because that’s a way to reach more people. I went and started volunteering at WHYY in Philadelphia where I worked on a show called Been There Done That, which was a public radio show aimed directly at baby boomers as if every public radio show was not aimed directly at baby boomers. I was 21, 22 years old producing segments like the Colonoscopy Special.
Skye: The what? I’m sorry?
Ian: The Colonoscopy Special, which was a live recording of a colonoscopy.
Skye: Oh. Wow. What was that?
Ian: Mostly it was a lot of — moaning was the main sound that came across.
Skye: What a strange job for you to have in your early 20s.
Ian: Yeah. Totally. It was great though. I mean, it was great because the producer I worked with was really open to me trying weird things. Also, maybe because I wasn’t the audience, and the audience wasn’t that big, I didn’t feel like there were consequences for doing weird things. It didn’t really feel to me like anybody was ever going to hear it. It was a good place to explore, I guess.
Skye: Take risks.
Ian: Yeah. Just sort of — figure — it feels like finger painting.
Skye: I like that metaphor.
Ian: Yeah. I think that’s what it felt like. Being at WHYY — for some reason Danny Miller, the executive producer of Fresh Air — there was a job opened up and he asked me if I wanted to apply for it. I don’t know what he saw in me. I was probably a pretty obnoxious young producer. But I got that job. That was wonderful. My time there was really great.
Skye: Can I ask you — because, and I’m sure you get asked this all the time, but I’m such a — I mean, Terry’s a hero of mine. What was it like to work with her?
Ian: She’s the best.
Skye: I knew you were going to say that.
Ian: I think sometimes people want there to be a dark side.
Skye: Oh no. I don’t. I want her to be perfect.
Ian: I can tell you there’s no dark side. I can tell you the one thing — being a fan of hers for as long as I was before I started working there. You never hear her curse on the radio. The first time you hear an F-bomb come out of Terry Gross’ mouth in Terry Gross’ voice — it’s like as bizarre as if your cat said it. It’s like — that doesn’t belong there.
Skye: Yeah. I can see that.
Ian: She and Danny were both — and everybody there, really — were just so generous. It was a really great place to be, and a great place to learn.
Skye: Let’s get to Everything is Alive. I’ve heard you say that the podcast came out of your tendency to joke in your everyday life about the secret life of inanimate objects. Was there a particular moment when you realized, “Oh, my sense of humor. Yeah, that could be a podcast?”
Ian: No. No, there wasn’t. But, I recently was going through the Notes app on my phone looking for some note that I had left myself. I found this note from — I don’t know, from like 2012 or something — it was just a sentence, something like “Sometimes I think about the vegetables in the fridge after the light turns off and get sad.” I was like, “Oh, I thought I had this idea a year ago.” But, it turns out it was festering there before that.
Skye: So wait. Let me just make sure — this was a note that you were leaving for yourself as a possible idea? Or this was just like a note you were leaving yourself?
Ian: It was probably a note I left myself thinking about writing a short story. It was a thought that I had, and I was like, “Oh. There’s probably something there that I want to write about.”
Skye: Okay. How interesting.
Ian: Do you do that? Do you leave notes for yourself on the Notes app?
Skye: Yes. I do it all the time. Then they become very unwieldy and I have to clean them out.
Ian: Yeah. There’s — like, one day in 2014 I will have said to myself, “Time Cereal.” And, that’s all I will have written in the note. Now it’s 5 years later, and I look. It says, “Time Cereal,” and, I’m like, “What did I think? What was that idea?”
Skye: I don’t know. That’s a hard one to decode. Let me know if you figure it out.
Ian: I will.
Skye: Your show is entirely improvised, no?
Ian: Pretty much. Yeah.
Skye: Explain that.
Ian: The basic way we make the show is we cast an actor. Our producer, Jennifer, is in charge of that.
Skye: Is she working with an agency, or is she — do you ever call people that you just know?
Ian: Mostly it’s people I don’t know. It’s almost entirely Jennifer keeping an eye on the improv and comedy scene in New York, mostly. When somebody seems like they might be good — and the thing we’re always looking for is people who are funny, but aren’t people who need to be funny all the time — which is a surprisingly narrow needle to thread, I think. We cast actors, and I have a running list of objects. When we find someone we like, and we have a couple objects that we’ve vetted through some research, we give them a couple to choose from. They pick the one that speaks to them. Then I get on the phone with them, and talk for about 20 minutes just about basic character notes — like, if you’re playing a piece of tape, what about tapeness would inform your personality. Do you feel — do you have attachment issues because you’re always sticking to things. Are you constantly worried about things breaking, because your only encounter with the world is broken things. Are you tense and kind of clenched up because you live in a coil. We ask those questions just as a way to get at the core of what the personality is.
Skye: Is it like a brainstorming session then that’s happening on the phone, or is it like you asking him or her what they think, or vice-versa? Is someone leading this meeting? Or is it just a free-for-all?
Ian: I’m pretty much leading it, but the place we end up is really collaborative. I know what I’m looking for. I know how much of the character needs to be in sight by the end of that conversation. Yeah, I’m leading that. Once we have that, I like them to take a couple days and just think about it. Then we meet back in the studio, and do an interview for 90 minutes. It really feels like an interview to me. It doesn’t feel like a performance.
Skye: It feels real. Did you have any improv training prior to doing this podcast?
Ian: No.
Skye: No? So, is that nerve-wracking at all that, “Oh, I’m going to be working with an improv person?” Because you’re just being yourself, does that feel natural?
Ian: Yeah. It feels natural. I mean, I am occasionally — I know that there are skills I don’t have, so I have some fear sometimes that I’m not helping the person be the best they can.
Skye: I think that your responses to some of what they say are the best parts. It’s so deadpan in this way that’s sort of the perfect — I don’t know, do you call that a foil? I don’t know. But, it somehow — your reactions, your surprise — — but, subtle surprise, works so well in the show.
Ian: Oh. Yeah. That’s nice of you to say. Mostly I think what that is is when I insert myself like that, it’s just to emphasize what’s just happened. Whatever ignorance about the human world, or special insight from the object world, has just been expressed. The show is so — it’s mostly really subtle. Occasionally there’s something where its important to me that it come across.
Skye: Let’s play a clip from the show. Would you mind setting the clip up? I wanted to play one just because — I hope that we have people listening to this that have not listened to your podcast, and it’s hard for them, I think, to get the vibe of it without hearing it.
Ian: Sure. This is a clip from our episode Emmy, Pregnancy Test. Emmy is played by Emmy Blotnick, the comedian. I think, like all of the episodes, Emmy knows a lot more about us than we do because of her special job as a pregnancy test, but there’s also a lot of things that she is unaware of — because of how specialized her role in our lives is.
Ian: I first thought I would start by asking you some questions about babies, but you actually — despite what you do, you actually interact with adults a lot more than babies. Do you have a sense for what babies are like?
Emmy: I’ve seen them in the aisle before. They’re like little people that can’t do anything. I think I understand them as little people that — they make noise. They don’t really help with anything.
Ian: Yeah. So, what you’re — -
Emmy: Like, I’ve never seen a baby refill the stock of pregnancy tests.
Ian: Right.
Emmy: Right. But, I understand also that they’re very cute and people like taking care of a thing that does nothing.
Skye: It never gets old. Tell me about that moment. Can you unpack for us how you and that actor prepared for that scene?
Ian: I think we didn’t probably prepare for that scene particularly.
Skye: I mean, I guess — do you know, “Oh, this is going to go in this direction.” Do you have certain parameters when you start talking — like, we’re going to hit on this. This would be funny here. And, then it’s sort of improv around that framework? Is it just — we’re just going?
Ian: Usually what we do is we just go in. I have questions I want to ask, and I have scenes in mind that might be interesting. Sometimes they work in the course of the conversation. Sometimes they fit the arch that ends up emerging. Sometimes they don’t. When we get near something — like the idea that she would have no idea what a baby was, even though she was a pregnancy test — when we get near it, or maybe there’s a passing joke about it, at that point I’ll step down and say there’s something really funny or occasionally beautiful in whatever that idea is. Let’s go back and do it again, and kind of bring it up. Rise it up from where it started. I’ll see a glimmer of something and then try to forefront it through repetition and a little direction.
Skye: Do the actors ever totally surprise you with something? I was listening to the baseball hat episode, and he is talking about how he could have been lots of different hats. He could have been the falcon sex hat. Your reaction to that sounded so real to me — that you had never heard of a falcon sex hat. Is that true? Is that just great acting?
Ian: I’m surprised by the actors all the time. That time that you’re talking about, I was not surprised. One thing that I’ve found about the show is that when it comes to the real information — and there a couple, I hope, fascinating stories about the real world in each episode, I do all that research myself. I initially was working with a producer, and really wanted to be surprised by it. I set the producer loose on finding those things. It turns out I have very particular taste about what kinds of reality I think is interesting, so I kind of have to do that myself — like find the thing about the falcon sex hat. Or find the thing in the Chioke, Grain of Sand episode, the fact that white sand beaches are actually parrotfish poop.
Skye: Shocking discovery for many of us, I think.
Ian: Yeah. I dream that someone was listening to the podcast sitting on a white sand beach — feeling that realization beneath their suit.
Skye: I hope so.
Ian: But, narratively — and characterwise, and just momentwise, the actors surprise me all the time. That’s really — I love that. When it comes to real information, I’m pretty much never surprised.
Skye: Okay. Got it. Got it. In the middle of each episode you include a real-life interview with an expert of some kind. My impression is that those are all real people that you’ve called, right?
Ian: All the humans in the show are real.
Skye: They’re real.
Ian: Yes.
Skye: How do you decide who you’re going to call?
Ian: It has to come out of where there’s kind of a hole — a gap — something I’m really curious about from the object conversation arc. I generally get together a rough cut of the conversation with the object. If there’s a place where it feels like we’d like to know more here, then we get about tracking down the person. I really want that. You said experts — and they often are experts. I really don’t want them to be experts. I much more — I really like when they’re just people who have some connection to whatever we’re talking about. That conversation makes me so much — I just find that so much more satisfying. I like when they don’t like me, too.
Skye: Who didn’t like you?
Ian: I think you can hear tension with a lot of them. I cold call. I don’t like to do pre-interviews with anybody. I don’t like people to know I’m calling. I just think that when you’re asking somebody for their time when they don’t really have it — I just love the tension of that. I like the texture change that you get with that. Occasionally we’ve been on deadline and desperate and gone to an experty expert. That’s one thing I really want to get better at in the show is making sure the people working on the show have the time to find the best people. I don’t know. I love when it sounds real and not like something you would hear on Morning Edition. I love Morning Edition, but I don’t want to sound like it.
Skye: What would you call those people? Since so many of them — you’re right — are not experts. They have a specialty or they know something very well, and they can help you with it. But, what would you — do you have a preferred — so that we can set the record straight that they’re not experts?
Ian: We just call them, I guess, the human interview.
Skye: The human interview.
Ian: Or the callout.
Skye: Okay. That works. That works for me. Many episodes, almost most I would say, have contained moments of seriousness. I’ve noticed that mortality comes up a lot. I think that makes sense because objects don’t always last. Maybe this is a weird question, but I wonder whether you think about mortality a lot.
Ian: Doesn’t everybody?
Skye: I don’t know if they think about it as much as you.
Ian: Yeah. I mean, I do think about it a lot. I also — one thing that I kind of discovered after starting to make the show is that there’s two types of objects. There are objects that are used once, and there are objects that are used all the time. Objects that are used once have this very weird existence where the thing that they are for — their kind of core identity, they have no experience of whatsoever. Like, a can of cola lives its whole life not being drunk. All of its experiences actually have nothing to do with what it is intended for. In most cases a syringe is like that. A syringe is sitting around waiting to be inserted into somebody’s body. That’s the thing we think about when we think about it. It has no experience of the most important moment of its life. We have memories of the most important moments of our life, but objects don’t. And, then there are objects who are used everyday and do have those memories — like a subway seat. It has countless — yeah. In producing the show I try to mix up those two types of objects. I think you do run up against the same themes in those two categories, and I think you do often end up abutting issues about mortality. The challenge is to always find a new thing to talk about. Mortality, when you’re talking about it — but, also to talk to objects that don’t need to think about it as much as the others.
Skye: I enjoy those discussions.
Ian: Yeah. Me, too.
Skye: I think they bring us to a totally new place, and an unexpected place often — a more poignant place. You contain both — the humor and the more serious moments, and I really enjoy that.
Ian: I think that’s what lives are. Lives aren’t just serious or just funny. It’s my feeling that the show should be like a life. It should be able to do all of those things.
Skye: It’s a full life. Yeah, I agree. You’ve said that some of the responses you’ve received have been — dramatic I think was a word that you used. I wanted to know if you could share a few of the most memorable responses you’ve received from listeners.
Ian: I was just at this podcast festival in Australia. Someone asked me about, I don’t know, the impact that the show is making on people. I talked about this one email I got. I’m not a person who cries, but I get very choked up on stage, which was really weird.
Skye: Let’s do it right now.
Ian: No. I’ll just say, I think people have found different ways of saying that the show has made them — while listening to the show they realized they’re having empathy for an inanimate object, and that that’s a very weird feeling. A lot of people write in variations on saying that when they have that weird feeling they think about, “Why am I having this weird feeling, and what does it mean about the amount of empathy or the type of empathy I should have for the humans in my life?” If I’m feeling this now, shouldn’t I be feeling it when I’m not listening to a dumb podcast where a guy talks to lampposts? That’s very meaningful to me. It’s not my intention at all. I just want it to be an interesting, entertaining show. I think it has done that to, and for, people. I’m just amazed and grateful that that’s happened.
Skye: Everything is Alive is part of the Radiotopia network of podcasts. How does that work? Can you share with our listeners how do you become a member? What does that really even mean?
Ian: I pitched the show to Julie Shapiro, who’s the executive producer.
Skye: Did you know her from before?
Ian: A little bit. We were both in Chicago at the same time, and have crossed paths in different circles. I didn’t know her well. I sent her a pilot, and she — I hope I’m not putting words in her mouth, but I think she loved it. It was like, “Let’s do it,” which was great. Being a part of the collective is — it’s not like, every show is its own small business. Every show is an independent thing. You can choose for yourself how much assistance you want from the core of the collective. But, they do some promotion, sell some ads. I feel like I can reach out to other people in the network if I have a question about a thing that I’m working on that has to do with words I feel like I can call Helen Zaltzman anytime. I really love the mission of Radiotopia, and I think that’s why they picked this show. I think their goal above all things is to make the ecosystem of shows available to us more diverse. With this show I didn’t care if it was good, I just wanted it to be a different thing — a different choice somebody could make when they were choosing what to listen to. I think that Radiotopia, and I think Julie, really believe in putting different things out into the world. I get with that.
Skye: I can appreciate being able to talk to someone like Helen, who you just mentioned, to run something by someone else is so helpful — so that you’re not just living in your own little bubble of your own show, but you get real feedback. Maybe it helps to not feel isolated a little bit?
Ian: Yeah. I mean, I feel very isolated.
Skye: You do?
Ian: Yeah. Not because those things aren’t available to me. It’s just — it’s very — it’s a hard show to make. There are great people working on it, but I’m the only one working on it fulltime. It’s hard. This is a hard, dumb business. Making these things is really hard. Everyone who’s doing this says the same thing.
Skye: Yeah. It’s exhausting, and it’s hard.
Ian: Yeah.
Skye: You have to love it.
Ian: Yeah. There’s no other reason to do it.
Skye: I know that your dream is to get Ice Cube to play an ice cube.
Ian: Yes.
Skye: I’d like to know how close you are to realizing that dream.
Ian: Not close.
Skye: Someday.
Ian: I believe it’s going to happen.
Skye: I feel like he would be excited to make it happen.
Ian: Yeah. I’ve just got to take some steps. It’s time to take some steps.
Skye: There are a few steps in there. I have to ask what podcasts inspire you? Or just entertain you? It doesn’t need to be a lofty word like inspire. It could be just what are you listening to right now?
Ian: I really love This Is Love right now. It’s really — I love the way they think about stories. Just finished The Dream, which I really thought was great.
Skye: Yeah. I liked that one, too.
Ian: I just love — I love that it’s so fun and so singular. It’s fun in its own way. Then it ends up — it feels like it’s maybe just fun for a minute, then by the end of it it’s this incredible reporting that gets to corruption at the highest levels of the US government. I just love that move.
Skye: It’s surprising, that one.
Ian: Have you heard Gay Future?
Skye: I have not.
Ian: Have you heard of it?
Skye: Yes, I have. In fact, I think that I’ve maybe written about it in the newsletter, but I write so much that I’m not remembering the specifics.
Ian: I love the premise of that show. The premise is that it’s a podcast adaptation of a young adult novel written by a young Mike Pence.
Skye: Yes! I now remember.
Ian: I love the audacity of that premise that we’re going to make up a fake book, and then we’re going to make an adaptation of that fake book. The layers on that — I love.
Skye: I’m writing this down. I’ve got to check it out.
Ian: I love really niche stuff, and really weird stuff. Even things I don’t love — there are things I don’t love that I’m just glad they’re happening, you know?
Skye: Yeah. I actually heard you once say that there’s like a podcast flavor. I can’t remember where you were saying it, but it’s sort of the same way that McDonald’s has its own flavor. Sometimes podcasts have their own flavor, but it was a flavor that you didn’t like — it wasn’t a good thing to have the podcast flavor, the way you were saying it.
Ian: Yeah. It’s not entirely articulable — just the way that McDonald’s flavor is not articulable.
Skye: Good use of that word.
Ian: I don’t even know if it’s a word. But, don’t you listen to things, and you’re like, “Oh, this is very podcasty?”
Skye: Yeah. But, the funny thing was that I thought when you were saying that — I thought you were going to a place of “And, that’s what I love!”
Ian: No.
Skye: But, instead you were like, “And, the podcast flavor was not — it doesn’t’ make me happy.” I thought you were saying there’s — I’ll have moments where I’m listening to a podcast that I really love, and I almost feel euphoric about it. I’m walking down the street, and I’m in this podcast fog at that moment. In a way, that’s sort of where I thought you were going with that statement.
Ian: I would imagine that when you’re having that experience it’s something that has transcended podcastiness.
Skye: Yes. I would agree with that. Maybe when someone’s made a podcast, and they’re trying to make it sound too much like podcasts that they’ve heard, or something like that. But, we don’t need to throw shade, I suppose.
Ian: No. No. I’ll stop myself from throwing shade. I do feel like there’s this trend toward really hyper-specific topics. I mean, I am the person who has a show where I talk to inanimate objects, so I don’t have room to talk. But there’ll be shows where they start and the person is like, “Hey, this is the show where we talk about people who, at one point with a friend, had a fight where they stole something from the friend and now they’re thinking about whether or not to return it.” The show is just going to be people telling versions of that story.
Skye: It’s going to be a 6-episode serialized season.
Ian: Not serialized. Each episode is a different person telling about a time they’ve stolen an article of clothing from a friend. I never know how many — from the premise of the show you’re going to know how that show ends every time.
Skye: That’s true. Yeah, it’s a little formulaic.
Ian: I don’t know. I think there are things that we all get tired of because we’ve heard so much of them, but then the individual things are great. I think people talk about how people think of podcasts as a true crime delivery service. People who make podcasts that aren’t true crime lament that. I do too, but also there’s such great true crime, too. It’s an indictment of the trends without an indictment of the individuals who are making good stuff. I think in any subset of these things it’s become a subset because somebody did it really well and other people are inspired and want to try to do it, too. While we make fun of the existence of the subset, the subset is not full of things we would make fun of.
Skye: Right. There are things in there that we wouldn’t make fun of, and it is just good to have people making and creating.
Ian: Yeah. I think that’s true. I love that about the medium, because it’s so easy to try.
Skye: Yeah. You can do whatever.
Ian: I can’t decide to make a feature film tomorrow by myself.
Skye: A feature film about interviewing objects would be interesting. I need to ask you to tell our listeners how to find you, and how to find your show — and maybe how to support your show.
Ian: Sure. You can find our show wherever you find shows by looking for Everything is Alive. You can also go to our website which is everythingisalive.com. We are on twitter at @ianchillag, which is sort of the fastest way to talk about the show if you want to talk to me about the show.
Skye: Ian, it has been a total delight to talk to you today. Thank you so much for joining me on the show.
Ian: Thank you. It was really fun talking to you, too.
Outro: Thanks so much for listening to that interview with Ian Chillag. Later this week we will release a mini-episode in which I chat with Kim Lyons, our managing editor here at Inside.com about the making of this particular show.
I hope you’ll listen next week when I interview Jessi Hempel. She hosts LinkedIn’s podcast Hello Monday, where she’s interviewed an impressive array of guests, including Seth Meyers, Abby Wombach, Elizabeth Gilbert, and Melinda Gates. Prior to working at LinkedIn Jessi had no podcast experience. So I just loved hearing her insights on what it was like to go from being a print journalist to podcaster.
If you have feedback on this show, please email me at skye@inside.com or find me on twitter at @SkyePillsbury. If you’d like to support the work we’re doing here at Inside Podcasting, please tell a podcast fan or a podcaster about this podcast and consider subscribing to our free email newsletter of the same name. You can find it at inside.com/podcasting.
Inside podcasting is produced and hosted by me, Skye Pillsbury, with massive production help from Michael Sorg at Sorgatron Media. Charles Quilley is our sound engineer. Rachel Loden is our researcher. Kim Lyons, whose advice is always invaluable in the making of this show, is the managing editor at Inside.com. Special thanks to Inside owner, Jason Calacanis, for greenlighting this project, and as always, to my family for putting up with me. And, finally, thanks to all of you for listening.